Curse

Poison Ivy · Jun 28, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Diversion you whackos!

DIVERSION.

Touch Ranger's worse nightware.

Francis Demeules · Jun 28, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Or Blackout......

zakaria · Jun 28, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

bunny thumper,2 touch rangers and monk in team is not easily to counter even if you have counter skills to shut them down.

Francis Demeules · Jun 29, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

If they use Expertise to reduce the touch, why not trying to get these skills to the "original cost"

<.< Quickening Zephyr, everyone? >.>

Minus Sign · Jun 29, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

I’m not going to read all of this but I did read some. If what I say has been beaten to death, sry.

In AB, where the thread topic originated, Boon Prots are hardly at a disadvantage as long as their group kites. The heals we dish out are almost if not more than twice the damage a touch deals, and the defense buffs we cast at the same time (RoF) stay on after the first hit. In the clinch with diverse groups of damage degen and life stealing, that’s a fair trade.

I’ve had no problems Boon Protting through touch rangers when my team kites and brings snares. Of course, I ask that they BRING snares first, since I know we are going to see a touch group. At least one.

They have no spike protection; no elemental defense, and no hex removal. Touch rangers are easy to kill.

They bunch up, making them prime targets for a Barrage R/Rt with Brutal Weapon/Favorable Winds combo. Trap your location (and your team) with a snare and its GG when they charge you.

Yes, when four or seven or 12 of them gang up on you, you’ll die. Be honest: how many people can survive 4 or 7 or 12 of ANYTHING ganging up on them without dying?

Don’t forget that lovable Crip shot ranger too.
Shock Warriors with Irresistable Blow=Dead on Arrival. Wild Blow=even fight minimum.
Gale+Echoed Aftershock=DoA. Water Hexes FTW. Ward Foes=GG
Conjure Nightmare+Imagined Burden=DoA.
SS+Malaise=no energy/no healing, personal fav of mine atm.
Earthbind+Degen=DoA Spirit camping (kiting around in attack range of your spirits)=higher DPS with Painful Bond=Dead.
Aura of Displacement+Way of the Fox=in and out mellee spikes before they can even swap targets to hit you=GG

To those of you still calling for a nerf after reading half the posts in this thread, I suggest you search wiki for these builds/skills. You need a refresher. FoTM you may laud and whine about when you put these skills on your slots but if it works, I use it and don’t care if I thought of it myself (which does not mean I came up with it first; I know better and so should you) or someone else explained it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vapor311

Touch rangers have several things going for them in Alliance Battles. They are:

A) Mobile
B) Self-Sufficient

So beyond the fact that the build works well for this environment, they are in demand. If you sit in the waiting areas looking for a game, you'll see as many requests for touch rangers and touch teams as you will monks.
It is a function of the public team building dynamic in Guild Wars. People want what works and have little use for unique builds that other people may create (until it catches on and becomes another FoTM).

QFT. Touch rangers are good at fast attack and retreat. They can Cap quickly and move onto the next control point at speed.

But they cannot hold worth a damn. The reason why people prefer them in PuGs is because they are easy to coordinate; just call targets and your team starts attacking and healing (and spiking if they have a GB Blood spiker). People who play them have little confusion as to what they are going to be doing today, and some trust in their PuG that the group will know and do it too.

They are popular in AB because the NPCs there have no ready counters for them, making it easier still for them to cap control points. So too in Aspenwood and Quarry.

It is not because they are the uber leet needs to be nerfed buildzorz.

When you attack them, they can turn on you and fight. They do turn on you and fight. Live or die depends on what game you brought.

Rest assured, there will be new skills that can counter touch rangers in the future chapters. I know it for a fact. Why/how do I know? Because counters already exist in game that can shred them like a wet piece of toilet paper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

This is IWAY for Alliances.

Sadly, also true, and why I see a nerf in this builds future no matter how easily countered it is 1v1, grouped, et al. The counters and strategies existed for IWAY long before the build gained prominence. It was nerfed as much because people refused to adapt and squash it like the bug it was than because it was overpowered. Happily, IWAY has survived the nerf, adapted to the changes and continues to see use in HoH. I can only hope R/N’s will receive a similar light nerf and not be bludgeoned over the head with the nerf bat either, but tweaked to expand its playability and diversity in game.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jun 29, 2006, 05:10 AM // 05:10

but why did they bludgeon MF's over the head with the nerf bat? :'( anyway on topic

Touchies are wussies don't worry about em, bring a nuker along for huge mobs of em, and a Sin for the pesky lone touchies.

carbajac · Jun 29, 2006, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Demeules

If they use Expertise to reduce the touch, why not trying to get these skills to the "original cost"

<.< Quickening Zephyr, everyone? >.>

I would say that would be fine if there probably weren't touch rangers on your side as well, if not more than the other side. You don't want to hurt your team, just theirs.
Plus you kill my boon prot's energy that way.

samifly · Jun 29, 2006, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Broadhead arrow wont help since touch skills are skills which dazed doesnt affect. Otherwise good post. I'm getting sick of these threads -.-.

Brother Foon Sped · Jun 29, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

When all consideration/discussion regarding random PvP revolves around being or countering a touch ranger, all the 'omg its used, counter it they suck' arguements simply hold no water.

When you take one character into random PvP and expect to defeat all of your opponents unless they specifically counter you, or gang up on you, and your prowess in combat comes directly from the skills you use and not the skill you possess, then I would claim there is a problem.

This game is not supposed to be based around counters, but around player skill.

Touch rangers currently fly in the face of this concept. Only a select few builds, played to a high level of skill, can defeat some 3 week newb spamming 3-4 skills.

Well put.

Another poster said make touch skills into spells. Seems like that would be a nerf that worked for game balance.

As far as a counter... Snare and degen... fine I can do that. But it's AB. Nothing pisses me off more then I slap a -10 degen and a snare on a R/N and some fool runs up to the touchie to feed him health.

twicky_kid · Jun 29, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Since AB is not about killing other players I don't think that touchers should be nerfed for this 1 type of pvp play. Since its random pvp you are going to have an idoit or 2 on your team just about every game. I don't think you should nerf a build when the counters are 2 of the most used things on the game.

There are very few builds that can directly counter touchers. Survival will come from player's skill. That is why this should not be nerfed. A player with high skill will own any toucher with just about any build they run.

I run an AoE smiter and I never have touble with touchers. I simply kite them towards my war. Soon as they take heavy dmg fast they tend to run away. Then I turn to start smiting off my war and we have a dead toucher.

Nothing in my build that can counter them directly. They can bypass all of my prot skills and out dmg my divine favor heal. I survive by using my head and communication with my other teammates.

I could care less if its being overused. That only makes their team weaker overall. There are better teams I'd rather not run into so the touchers can stay.

Aisius · Jun 29, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

I read all of all this thread and found it informative for toucher counters. I don't want to see nerfs and while playing a W/Mo see wild blow as the best counter for any stance they use.

-Wild blow when there stanced /spike damage with healer with me
-call target move on
- have range damage dealer take them out or cripple
- Don't run to them to feed there health renewal
- When one crops up behind a foe I have targeted (not sure if touch range allows this) charge {E} flee the scene and get backup.
- call for the Sin aka touch hunter to take em out

I have had alot of problems with this as I always percieve my warrior to be the guy on the front lines dishing out the damage whilst keeping the other guys from meleeing my more vulnerable team mates. Touch rangers have made me rethink this veiwpoint.

Minus Sign · Jun 30, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by samifly

Snip!

ty; it was late and I was tired. Edited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AhuraMazda

SNIP!

Agreed; well put...were it true.

First, double check the threads in these forums. While there are a few about Touchers, I admit, they are hardly a pox on the communication between players. Guild Wars has not stopped talking about everything else just because of this weak AB IWAY.

Second: Skill revolves around counters. A skillful player will try to counter as many builds as possible, either to fight through and survive their opponent’s higher damage or to overpower and kill. Many people here have been trying to explain this.

Previously, these counters revolved almost exclusively around Armor boosts and Block/Evade buffs or damage reducers. These buffs worked on everyone, unless they brought counters to them (armor ignoring skills, stance breaks {very rarely}, enchant strips, etc). Snare/slows don't enter into many builds because they are seen as somehow less preventative. A former guild of mine dismissed snares because "the tank can still do just as much damage". I left them the first chance I got.

Healers remove conditions and hexes; you have to be facing a curse nerco or a memser (who brought them) to worry about enchant strips most of the time. Since everyone will take a bad monk over a good mesmer in this game, the defense side is bolstered while the offense weakens.

Frankly, that the metagame was stagnating into a block/parry fest pre-touch shows just how inflexible players are when it comes to their counters. Instead of taking on the snares and learning just how powerful these skills can be, the pitchforks and torches come out.

Many people realize how unfair, selfish and foolhardy this approach is. Nerf calls for touch skills and Expertise are basically cries of "Omg! My build has been countered and I don't know why! NERRRRF!"

We’re telling you why.

Another build was constructed to fight and counter riposte warriors and over-Prot Spirit-spamming Prot Boons, succeeded, and gets a nerf call. This in turn, shows how flexible the metagame is.

People call Touchers cheap no skill hacks. I call them slower versions of an Obsidion spike team with different skills. A more rigid smiteball, etc.

Do these builds pwn the unwary, the unprepared? Absolutely. Do they get verbally smacked down because "spike has no skill" or "omg! Four monks! You coward noobs!"? Yes. Do they receive nerf call after nerf call?

You bet your shiny tuchis.

…It's to the point that I'm considering this for a signature. Some people get it, too many don't. But everyone needs to hear it at least once in their gaming lives.

Adapt or die. If you don't adapt, you deserve to die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisius

Snip!

Actually, if you want the best counter to a touch, bring the best PvP warrior build in the game. Wiki shock warriors for build ideas and consider hammer skills; Irresistible blow knocks down when blocked and cannot be evaded. Take Wild Blow along for the ride and you’re a warrior eating Boon Prot KDing machine from the underverse. And don’t forget, lifestealing is Frenzy friendly.

Hammer W/E’s pwn pvp. If your team will follow your target calls (and you have a decent healer for those that don't take the bait) you can take them down 1 at a time and watch the last one run for his life!

Edge Martinez · Jun 30, 2006, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Warriors should have wild bow anyway. Mesmers should have blackout and diversion if they are dom based anyway. All this stuff about AB being about touchers and how to counter them is annoying. It's a war for control.

Maybe next time the enemy in Iraq IMPROVISES an explosive device, our boys over there should just complain loudly and write their commanders in the hopes that god nerfs the terrorists.

On a related note, as far as Wild Blow goes, it's not a bad idea, but i personally save blind for PCs. I'll use a stance when I run up solo on a hardpoint with like 3 NPC Warriors or Rangers.

rong626 · Jul 03, 2006, 08:56 AM // 08:56

You guys just wait..I m getting touch rangers to get nerfed

Worf · Jul 03, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

I didn't read the whole thread, just some posts. Still, i don't see why Touchers should be nerfed.

A) There is many counters to them (Snares, Interrupts, Diversion, Blackout..)

B) They can't spike alone. Normal Boonprot does have 630 health, and Vampiric Touch/Bite does at 12 Blood Magic 65 damage. 10 hits to kill?

C) Warriors should do more damage anyways. Why not to nerf them?

They can be annoying if you have more than 3 on you, but 1 or 2 Touchers just can't kill Monk (Boonprot). They aren't overpowered.

Winstar · Jul 03, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

This has been said on other posts, and has probably been said on this one somewhere as well, but the only place Touchers cause anyone any trouble is in Alliance battles. But alliance battles are not a proper ground on which to gauge the power level of a build. Its too random and generally caters to a wider but not necessarily more skilled group. I'm certain there is a lot worse than touchers that has and could be done in AB. Imagine the outcry if there were people running around doing a proper spike of somekind.

Shuuda · Jul 03, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

I Wonder, if you went R/N but not a toucher(a bow user). Maybe you should take a Necro staff with you. Then a warrior sees you he'll run thinking your a toucher, then switch to your bow and nail him. This most likey will not work because some warrior ar stupid wammo who try to tank a toucher by themselves.

But this plan would be funny if it works.

Francis Demeules · Jul 03, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

<.<

>.>

<.> (ouch)

Shared Burden for a slow?

Oren The Destroyer · Jul 04, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

(gonna sound like a broken record here) if you hate a build find ways to counter it. dont complain to us, we dont want to hear it.

Demesis · Jul 04, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

I actually made a touch ranger today, and I found out that they weren't as super as I thought they were. In fact they're quite fragile. They're only good on 1 vs 1 encounters, but they fall really fast when they're against 3 ppl at once.